CS Yacht Owners Associations

Hi,

Now that I'm a member of the CSOA mailing list I'd like to explore the possibility of becoming a member of the CSOA.

Specifically, I'm considering the purchase of a CS yacht.

I had narrowed my search to the Centurions (Wauquiez) 47 and 49 and Swans 46 and 47. Then up jumps my broker with the idea of purchasing a CS 50.

Other than what is on a sketchy spec sheet, I know nothing about the CS 50. Aspects like how many were made when; I, P, J and E values; comarisons to the CS44 and other boats; and so on are things I would like to learn about the CS 50. Ideally, I'd love to be able to dialogue with any CS44 or 50 owners.

Can anyone help?

Thanks, in advance.

Gene Novak

Dear Gene:

I own Quintessence, a CS40, and previously owned a CS36. I'm pretty sure that only one 44 and one 50 were built. They were built in Brazil to designs by German Frers and were basically an experiment by Paul Tennyson, the owner and CEO of CS, to build a quality boat for less. The 50 is located, I think, in Marblehead, Mass.. and the spec sheet showed a beautiful hull with lots of cruising gear, I myself thought of buying the boat because it seemed reasonably priced, but since I use Quintessence mostly for racing it wouldn't have fit my needs.

If you ever examine the 50 I'd be interested in your reaction.

Good luck. Roger Widmann

CS33 Owners,

Does any owner have an early model CS33 with the propane tanks stored in the port cockpit locker?

I have recently talked with Bob Amdur (CS33 Allegro II) and he is having a hard time finding a replacement tank for his old rusty tank. The tank

on my CS33 mounted in a well under helmsman seat is a 10lb. unit 8 inches in diameter by 12 inches high.

Any help or suggestions please send to Bob Amdur at ramdur@aol.com Bob is not yet on the listserve but will be connecting soon.

Best Winds,

Anton & Shirley

Does anybody have any experience with the new generation of propeller shaft seals to replace the stuffing box on a CS36T?

Bob:

I don't have experience with the shaft seal stuffing box replacement. We did replace the stern tube (with larger ID & thickness) and the stuffing box last spring. We considered the new type shaft seal but felt that the traditional arrangement is easier to maintain and perhaps more robust.

Our project came about during a check of the rubber hose that connects the stuffing box to the stern tube. The stern tube broke - must have had a circumferential crack! This was during spring prep - on land. It would have been a disaster to have it occur at sea.

All parts (including proper fiberglass stern tube) were from Holland Marine Products, Toronto and work was done by South Shore Marine, Chester, Nova Scotia.

If you need any details let me know.

Regards,

Fraser Farmer

I also considered fot a time to replace the traditional stuffing box by a more modern packless seal.

The problem is that there is not much room above the shaft due to the engine with V-drive configuration on the CS36. A safe tolerance between the hose of a modern packless shaft seal and the bottom of the engine/gearbox, allowing for vibration without making any contact between them, is essential. The diameter of the seal is therefore critical. In most cases the modern seal has a bigger diameter compared to the diameter of the traditional stuffing box and hose because a rubber bellows is needed to obtain some pressure between two surfaces to keep the water inside the tube and sealing system.

The two modern options I heard good stories about are:

* the P.S.S. Shaft Seal sold in the US by PYI (also sold by West Marine);

* the surprisingly cheap shaft seal made by Volvo (in England also called the "Black Jack" .

I know of two CS36 boats in which the Volvo seal is installed (in one already for 5 years) and the owners are very satisfied with the configuration. I need to mention that the Volvo seal is made for a 25 mm shaft. Nevertheless installation is possible on a 1 inch shaft. In fact the guys from Volvo in England (lots of boats there with shafts with a diameter of 1") claim that the seal lasts longer on a 1 inch shaft and gives also less dripping.

The only thing is, that you have to diminish the diameter of the shaft tube a little with sandpaper. Installation has to be done with lots of soapy water.

I myself decided not to buy a modern seal, because when it fails you are in more trouble than with a traditional stuffing box. So I bought from West Marine the "Dripp-Less Moldable Packing Kit" (around 50 USD), consisting of pieces of Teflon moldable packing that forms an extra lubricant and also a water resistant seal between two conventional packing rings in the stuffing box. I use rings of 1/4 inch Multi-Service Teflon Packing (also obtainable in the US). The two rings and the moldable Teflon stuff are also treated with a special Teflon grease (part of the kit supplied by West Marine).

I did the installation myself with te boat afloat. The only problem I encountered was that I found it difficult to get an even and also substantial layer of moldable Teflon packing between the two traditional packing rings. Because of variations in thickness of the Teflos stuff after I put this into the Hex Spud, I could not get the last traditional ring into the Spud to get the Hex Spud around for more than one whole turn.

In the end and after using some bad words, I found that this was in fact a rather easy job. I leaved the last traditional ring out, closed the stuffing box not to tight and started the engine for a minute or two in forward gear. After that operation I found it easy to get the last traditional packing ring in the box.

After a few drips and tightenings of the Hex Spud during the first few hours of motoring, the engine room bilge stayed completely dry for the whole season.

I wish you good luck with the option you choose!

Best Regards,

Willem J. Kroes

Thanks for your input on the shaft seals. Most of us seem to get caught up in the vortex, of what's new and wonderful, without thinking it through. What can be more simple and reliable, than the standard stuffing box? Regards, David...

Perhaps there are shaft seals and there are "other" shaft seals. I would not venture to condemn them all with the same brush stroke. From the experience of 25 years in the boat business I know that surveyors are not infallible (or omniscient) either. In fact some curmudgeonly surveyors I have known are worst source of mistruths and maligned personal opinion.

Before writing off modern shaft seals... take a close look at the PSS sold by PYI, or the Tides Marine Strong Seal. Both of these units are robust and used on the finest and most expensive yachts built and have been proven by hundreds of thousands of hours of severe commercial powerboat use. Come on ... you don't think technology has advanced in the last century? That old waxed linen cord stuffing box is at least that old. And I have seen boats sink becuase of them too. Actually the rusting (so-called stainless steel) hose clamps on the shaft log hose that are most often the guilty culprit. Especially so if the boat has a V-drive and the skipper rarely even takes glance at it for years at a time!

There are (or were) some rather flimsy units marketed. The original Las-drop seal had a rather thin rubber or neoprene "bellows" that connected the shaft log to the seal itself. I recall that they recommended regular replacement of the bellows for safety sake. I assume that like most owners, few ever did this recommended maintenence.

Both the PSS and Tides Marine seals have very hoses at least as substansial to reinforced steam-type hose normally used on a conventional stuffing box.

I had a PSS seal on my Nordic 44 for many years. And since my new CS36T is simularly cursed with a V-drive, I will install either the PSS or Tides Marine Seal on it this spring.

Visit the PYI web site and get the real poop!

Jerry Cann

Why mess with something that just plain works.

The standard stuffing box works and works better if you use teflon packing which was used on all CS boats, I believe from the mid eighties on. I've used this method for the past 12 years without a hitch. If you have a Vee Drive and it's difficult to access and adjust, I can see your point.

It does occasionally require an 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn, making sure the locking nut is secured (double wrenched). This is a good time to inspect the clamps, hose, coupling (4 hex bolts) and grub screw. WD40 on the clamps and coupler help to fight corrosion in a saltwater environment.

I'm not knocking the new the shaft seals, I just can't find a whole lot wrong with the standard stuffing box.

Regards, David...

Thanks for your comments. I've been reading these various notes about shaft seals with rather casual interest but little more than that. Your note mentioning the Lasdrop seal rang a bell in the back of my brain and caused me to check my collection of manuals and instructions accompanying our 1988 CS36M. Sure enough, it does have a Lasdrop shaft seal, and even more surely enough, the instruction sheet clearly states that the bellows and any hose parts should be replaced in same fashion as engine hoses - ideally every 2-3 years. I guess it may be about time to do that. Thanks for the reminder. I think I'll check it over thoroughly while we're out of the water.

Scott Armentrout

Phil Cocking

We have owned our CS36 since 83 and they are noted for loose v-drive coupling bolts As this has happened twice we have replaced the nuts with nylor nuts and the problem has been solved for the last 8 years.

Over the years we have found our guests, especially the kids forget to place the lever back to horizontal. After numerous attempts to retify the problem we took the short white hose from the back of the head and replaced it with a vented loop behind the vanity - problem solved. I know of 2 CS36 which have sunk and we have come close With this modification the lever can be left up although we still check it.

Howdy,

Has anobody removed the cabinets in a CS30? I've discovered a couple of small rainwater leaks coming from small holes drilled through the hull/deck joint. I suppose these holes are left over from when it was assembled. I may be able to work it without removing any of the furniture, but when I look at the stuff, I don't see how it comes apart. Is it built in place? I'm wondering what to do if I ever have to get to the toerail or lifeline stantion bolts behind the dish cupboard or the locker with the cane door.

I found a small screw at the forward end of the shelf base that goes down into some of the molded GRP. It looks like the back end of that shelf is mounted on the molding for the galley counter. I just don't see any parts that can be unbolted and removed from the cabinets.

Cheers,

Charlie

Progress report: I have the locker and shelf removed now, allowing me to get ot the two small holes in the hull/deck joint. There was a fair amount of water damage to the plywood paneling that is behind that shelf, but no damage to anything else. The plywood didn't look bad before removing it. There was a bit of a water stain at the forward top corner and some evident delamination at the rear top area. I was surprised to find that the inner layers are really coming apart. I'll probably just make sure it is well dried and glue the laminate back down as well as I can and put it back in. This is a purely cosmetic piece of wood and it doesn't look bad. Since it matches the other side, I won't replace it.

For those that are interested, there are six screws that hold the shelf and cane-door locker assembly in place: 1 at the front end of the shelf, going down into the GRP molding 2 at the aft end of the the shelf, inside the locker 2 inside the locker, going through the side into the dish cabinet 1 from the wood countertop rail (fiddle?) going forward into the side of the locker (it is covered by a teak plug)

Once these six screws are removed, the shelf and locker lift out as a unit. I removed the settee backrest to make it easier to handle.

I am planning to clean up the inside of the two small holes by drilling them out with a slightly larger diameter drill bit, then wash with acetone. I will then put the tip of a caulking gun into the hole and inject as much 3M 101 Marine Sealant as it will hold, while somebody watches on the outside for escaping sealant. Hopefully, this will do the trick without having to remove the forward part of the toerail. If the deck laminate where the hole comes through is clean, the sealant should adhere to it and keep the water out from the hull/deck joint area, keeping it between the toerail and the deck.

I'll let y'all know how it goes. At least now I can get to all the bolts for the forward half of the toerail, so if it comes to that I can work it.

The more I work on this CS30, the more I am impressed by how well constructed it seems. The bulkhead is securely glassed into the hull and deck. There is no evidence of motion between bulkhead, deck, hull, or any interior moldings.

BTW, we have all six opening ports removed so that we can clean and reseal them. I think this is the first time they have been taken out. After 12 years, they had developed small rainwater leaks, hence the removal. I'll write it all up after we finish the job. It was a fair bit of work to get them out, about an hour each.

Cheers,

Charlie

I have the same problem with my ports. They all drip. How did you get them out without breaking the plastic trim ring?

Ron

P.S. My wife wonders how your boat handles in the Gulf, we only have a lake you see, and some big plans.

Louise & Darren

C' mon spring.

Ric Hattin

I am in Austin, central Texas, on Lake Travis; which is never very rough. It can be blowing 40 knots and just have about a four foot chop. The CS30 feels totally in control in those conditions, though. My smallest headsail is a 110, so I'd either use it alone or the main with two reefs as the only sail up when it is blowing that hard. If I had a third reef in the main and a storm headsail, that would be best; but, it doesn't blow like that often enough to justify it inland. The boat sails quite well with either sail up, but points much better with the headsail. It is easier on the nerves with the main up, though. I think the CS30 has a lot of sail for the size and displacement of the boat, so it needs early reefing and early changes to smaller headsails to avoid being overpowered. I like that, though, because there is more power available for the more common light and moderate conditions. My most frequently used sail combinations are full main & 150 genoa or full main & asymmetrical spinnaker.

Cheers,

Charlie

I have the Lemar type, and the plastic trim rings are held to the inner liner by velcro so they just pop off. Note that one part of the velcro is glued to the inside of the plastic trim ring, and getting a glue that will stick to it is a challenge. I had to try about 4 types of contact cement - ended up using the Lepage variety. Works a treat. In resealing the windows, I used latex bedding conpound, vice the silicone sealer. I think that silicone and GRP react over time.

Ric Hattin